So Much For Mongoose Traveller
April 14th, 2008 by JRMapesThis is an original post I made on another web forum. I would like to add that my current and foreseeable future feelings about Mongoose Traveller has no affect whatsoever on my plans to invest in the supplements for this game that are and will be written my Martin Dougherty of Comstar Games/Avenger Games. He is an excellent game writer and an all around good guy. It aggravates me to think I will be putting money into Mongoose’s coffers but I know from past experience that Martin’s books are some of the best Traveller books you can have on your shelf next to the original books. That being said, my original post…
I have come to the conclusion that I can no longer visit the Rikki Tikki Traveller (Mongoose) forums.
Every time I read the posts, especially from a certain Haight-Ashbury/Woodstock wannbe, it is all I can do to keep from screaming at my computer.
It really wouldn’t be so bad and I honestly believe that the old Traveller guys wouldn’t come off sounding like a handful of grumps in bathrobes if the Rikki Tikki Fanboys wouldn’t jump on them like rabid dogs every time some one points out an error or points something out that they aren’t to keen with in the new incarnation.
This is especially true when those fanboys proceed to rip you up one side and down the other then come back with some bogus rodney king line like how they can’t understand all the fuss, when they have have been sitting back pushing buttons and keeping the pot stirred.
It just isn’t worth it.
Further, if this is what Mongoose wants to promote as genteel forum society - since they love to delete threads when one of the old guard finally has had enough a blows his stack - but nary a word to or about the fanboy regulars that needle them to death.
Feh!
They can keep it - game and all.
This is as bad as the WOTC OOP boards where the new edition fanboys barrage the OOP board for weeks on end and whoever from the OOP board that gets annoyed enough to respond or complain - they not the trolls are the ones banned.
Gaming is fun - it’s supposed to be. A company opens itself up for suggestions and input - that’s fine. But when they get negative responses, instead of answering and to it themselves they just let their fanboys shout it down — that does nothing but promote bad blood and hard feelings.
What I don’t get is why when an error or problem is found, why doesn’t MG just own up right away and say - yup we are gonna fix it or nope we did that on purpose, it’s supposed to be that way? Why do they wait for days and weeks before they do or say anything? Surely they know that their most rabid fans, they are easy to spot since they post in every thread, are going to jump on the posts and start hammering the original poster and others that have found the same problem or that agree that there is a problem. Why wait till THEIR FANBOYS stir it up into a firestorm when you know all they are going to do is delete the thread and never give an answer after that?
It has to be the most stupid (potential) customer interaction I have ever witnessed in my life.
*Shrug*
8 Responses to “So Much For Mongoose Traveller”
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April 24th, 2008 at 12:38
I will have a look at the adventures and settings before I decide if I will buy the rules. What do I really need another ruleset for?
April 25th, 2008 at 5:53
Wow! Did the peeps at the Mongoose forums get their behavioral lessons by studying the TML in the ’90’s???
April 25th, 2008 at 15:48
If it really was like the TML of the 90’s I could have lived with it. Sure the TML was a flame fest but the TML also had no Darth Overlord and his merry band of thread killers that ruled the list with an iron fist ready and willing to shut down the voices of the handful of people that have far more experience within the knowledge and history of the game - put it this way - I could pick ONE of the old guard at random that has ventured over to Mongoose at their request for input and just that ONE persons knowledge and experience with Classic Traveller in YEARS tallies up to be more than ALL OF the Mongooses put together.
But for some reason they act like they despise anyone that has had a long gaming history with CT - especially if they have been a Ref all these years - the one group that likely knows the rules better than anyone else aside from the original creators.
Why is this? Is it simply because Mongoose wants to put out CT in their on vision and version? I don’t think so. I think Mongoose is far less concerned about how good the game is just as long as they put something on the store shelf to sell. It has nothing to do with cleaning up the old system or creating a new better version. It is 100% about moving product as fast as possible.
They have shown how quick they are to drop support for a product if the sales aren’t what they expect - they will kill the line to bring out a new line and in the process leave a lot of customers with a few books that suddenly become no more valuable than kindling for the fire.
There approach to Traveller, thus far, shows all the signs of this. They have taken the original rules and basically told their design staff to mongoosize it. So they have. They have added craptastic rules additions that make the game more complicated and even worse the mechanics they have added have been shown to be broken - so broken that IMO you end up with a game that you either drop all the mechanics and use the old mechanic from CT or you spend months figuring out work-arounds to make the new mechanics tolerable.
As BeRKA said above… What do we really need a new rules set for?
The only answer is… we don’t.
We have more than enough rule sets now and there is NOTHING wrong with the CT Rules Set. Not a bloody thing. The ONLY thing that would make the CT rules better is if someone took all the LBBs and SUPs along with the canon fixes from the official Adventures and official magazines and combined them into one or two books with better organization and indexing.
Mongoose’s marriage to Classic Traveller has been a Chinese fire drill from day one and will continue to be one until the day comes (I say sometime around summer of 2010) that they drop all support for the game for the next big endeavor to screw up yet another game.
When I last left the Mongoose boards it was plain to see that most all of the old guard had pulled up stakes and went back to their home boards and websites. There were a few hangers on but they were still being shouted down if they raised any points of contention. It doesn’t take long to figure out you are not welcome somewhere. Especially places where the trained monkey fanboys at half or more your age are treated as brilliant prodigy children while you get shit slung on you by those little dorks and the Big Mongoose himself praises them and then lectures you for being uncouth.
Mongoose can piss off.
Jerry
May 15th, 2008 at 6:37
I think I know the answer to the bias:
Grognards: CT is the best , nothing wrong with the rules. We don’t need any new rules. I am just hanging on at the MG forums to pick at the whipper-snappers, with NO INTENTION OF BUYING THE GAME.
Mongoose Brats: Yeah, I’m teh pwner of you. You’re just mad that I pwned you because I remind you on how you behaved when you were my age. I am the new gamer with EVERY INTENTION OF BUYING THE GAME.
Mongoose Developers: Hmmmm….both sides are punks, but one group will be customers while the other group will not…..I just can’t IMAGINE who I will back up…..
May 15th, 2008 at 18:15
I think that may be a bit too cut and dried. There are/were a number of “Grogs” that really got behind this project from the moment it was announced - I being one of them. Yes there were also those that were dead set against it from day one was well. But show me any new game edition announcement that doesn’t attract the same polarizing effect. 2e to 3e D&D, 3e to 3.5e D&D, 3.5e to 4e D&D, 2e to 3e 40k, 3e to 4e 40K, 2e to 3e Shadowrun, 3e to 4e Shadowrun, the GURPS editions, ad-infinitum.
The ONLY game I can think of that hasn’t faced this type or turmoil is Call of Cthulhu.
But the point still stands that many of the Grogs that came over to Mongoose, at the request of Mongoose for input, came because the supported the endeavor and DID plan on making the purchase. But when they were subjected to the crap of the Mongoose Can Do No Wrong Fanboys when even little things that were questionable or needed fixed was pointed out - things that Mongoose even agreed needed fixed and fixed! - it became quite clear that Mongoose had no intention of even saying “play nice” to the fanboys - but would in their double standard without fail kill threads or make long winded Rodney King “can’t we all just get along and be civil” posts directed at the Grog’s.
Funny thing about humans in general, they can usually smell a double standard from a mile away and for some reason don’t appreciate it.
There were some Grogs that I think came over to only stir the pot. I am pretty darn sure of it. But they were in the minority. The problem and the worst mistake Mongoose made was to not treat people as individuals. No instead, they lumped all of us that came over from COTI, the TML, and other long time Traveller sites and lists into one group, and a divisive one at that. This was not only stupid but flat out wrong thinking. They were doing exactly what their fanboys were doing - and yet they couldn’t figure out why people were getting more irritated? This action or lack of action depending on how you look at it basically gave the impression to grogs and fanboys alike that the fanboys were always in the right and the grogs were usually if not always in the wrong.
Some of us that went in supporting Mongoose ended up leaving and not supporting the project or at least the parts of it that mongoose was doing in house. Some of us stayed on, putting up with the crap, supporting Mongoose still.
The Grogs that never intended to support them, AFAIK still don’t. But that is no surprise.
Still those who did have and still has intentions to buy the game, when it comes down to the bottom line remains a mystery until said person owns up to the purchase. So you can’t say that all the Mongoose Brats have every intention of buying the game. It is possible many of them did and do - but just as many may have never had any intention on buying the game and they were only there to cheer Mongoose on and rip on the grogs cause Grogs R Sux0r. I have seen more posts around the forums and email lists from grogs that have made the purchase than I have yet to see on the Mongoose forums by the Mongoose Fanboys. I would think that observation would be reversed if all those fanboys actually had put their money where their mouth is.
In the end I think Mongoose still screwed the pooch. The reviews for the new version have been fairly good but always with some exceptions. They added some new ideas which have been reviewed as being pretty sharp yet there were things they could have done better. I think many of those things that could have been done better and the exceptions that could have been non-exceptions could have been fixed and smoothed out if Mongoose had paid more attention to those who were really trying to help make the game the best that it could be instead of listening to and fawning over their little mongoose brat fanboy yes kids.
The final release of the game showed to me that at least the designers were trying to listen to what they could or what they were allowed to. But it was as plain to see as the nose on my face that the head rodent wasn’t to keen on criticism, even when it was very constructive and very good intentioned. He has a real nasty aversion to criticisms of any kind - possibly a real fragile ego?
(from what other game company heads, writers, and acquaintances have said… Heh… we will leave that one alone for now.)
I have actually lightened up a bit on Rikki Tikki Traveller. I have went back to my, I hope it does well because that could mean new people being introduced to Traveller, which could mean more interest in the game locally which helps getting more groups together. I have yet to read the book cover to cover. I got a chance to skim it the other day and it isn’t bad. But I still won’t be purchasing it. I don’t need it. I have all the rules I need already. I still plan on picking up some of the supplements as they come out, if I have the expendable money to do so - otherwise I won’t. I don’t need them either but I expect MJD to add some cool new twists into the books he is doing.
However, I still have no respect for Mongoose or their head rodent or their fanboys; and that won’t be changing anytime soon. They all can still, piss off.
May 17th, 2008 at 1:31
Well, I understand that most games have their gripers when a new edition comes up. In my 28 years of gaming experience, however, Traveller players are the worst.
It comes from our islands of solitude that most of us were in before we got hooked up on the internet. Unlike the D&D people, we were alone. In most of our gaming groups all the way to the present, it was almost always being the only one who knew about Traveller was the GM; everyone else were newbies. We never really had that much contact with other Traveller players (outside of the HIWG) until the mid-90’s.
That’s when we were contacted by others, and found out we hated each other. We all had our views of Traveller when it came to rules and settings. Everyone else was stupid and wasn’t doing it right.
As for the ‘tude in the MG forums, I remember being treated in the EXACT same way on the TML. The only difference was it was people like you doing it (not necessarily you personally, but you know what I mean). I forgot which pro-CT people told me to “get the f&%k out of the TML, you Virus-Loving Bottom-Feeder” (it was more than one) but it didn’t matter. TML sucked for that reason just as much as the MG forums.
Keep in mind, there was either no moderator for the TML at that time or the moderator was siding with the obnoxious CT people. That’s why those guys got away with treating not only me, but others like K’kree fodder. This kind of attitude doesn’t do anybody any good.
Now, here I am, helping to develop T5. I can only say for myself that it looks good so far. Even if you are satisfied with T5, you might want to take a look at it once it comes out. If you can get to talking to some of us, you might find out we’re a little more benign than the MG kiddies……
May 17th, 2008 at 11:09
Maybe that was the problem. If MT had been everything it was supposed to be and in effect became the AD&D 1e of the Traveller Universe - a codified set of rules that everyone used (for the most part) then there wouldn’t have been such a backlash amongst Traveller peeps. But even AD&D wasn’t perfect and the D&D community is just as fractured and in some case even more fractured, albeit less vocal about those fractures than the Traveller Community. But that stands to reason because there are what 2 or 3 really active Traveller outlets on the Internet? Where if you are OOP D&D fan I can name off 5 very active sites just for 1e AD&D and 4 just for Original Little Brown Book D&D, etc.
Being part of both communities for a long time has given me a chance to really compare and contrast. In the end the only difference is that in the TRaveller community we are more bunched together which gives more opportunity for clashes. The D&D community subsets have staked out its individual territories and rarely does one group intrude on the others (aside from the occasional edition wars that break out over multiple sites - but they are not common.)
The TML I admit was not a fun place to be if you weren’t of the CT or MT persuasion. I also admit that some of the worst of it, I could have overlooked since I was not on the receiving end. Of course I have never been a Read Every Post member. I still delete 95% of what comes across the list.
I am very interested in T5. I was going to pre-buy into it but finances have been tight so that never happened. I considered getting in anyway to get into the continued development but then decided against it. Even if I wanted to dive in, I don’t think I would have the time to give it the attention that sort of commitment deserves.
Aside from health issues of late I am in the middle of designing a new sprawling campaign for my Traveller group and a new megadungeon and campaign for an OD&D regular game that I plan on starting up this summer for the “Odd Fridays” of the month. (we play Traveller every other Friday right now)
But yes, I do consider everyone on COTI to be much more benign than what you will find at the Mongoose boards. Heck even the TML is more benign than the mongoose boards. Oddly I find that most companies that deal with FRPGs have forums that are very unfriendly when compared to any of the TRaveller forums, lists, or email groups - same for most of the FRPG sites that are not “company” owned.
There is just something about company owned sites, with COTI and The TAS (Avenger/Comstar) being obvious exceptions that to me, seem to attract the total nut jobs and the worst of the worst of fanboys.
May 17th, 2008 at 18:30
I agree with that last statement. Keep in mind: the sites you probably gripe about the most are companies who chiefly produce D20 fantasy products.
I think it IS a question of age. The Traveller bunch are, on the average, a little older than the fantasy RPG’ers - even when we start.
The first Traveller bunch were already in their mid-20’s at least when the LBB’s first came out. You can say the same thing about D&D as well - but when you look at things just 10-15 years later, you start seeing the difference.
Traveller has always attracted the older audience. That’s why it’s not universally known out there. By the time people grow mature enough to handle Traveller, they are usually getting out of the hobby. It is only us few that hold on.
I admit I was 15 when I got my first LBB’s (back in ‘82), but, then again, I was always a little “off” (I read Arthur C. Clarke’s “2001:A Space Oddessy” when I was 7) and I was attracted to Hard Sci-Fi from the beginning. I played other games, but I always came back.
MG is, and always will be, bogarted by the kiddies. That is MG’s target audience. They developed that by publishing D20 books (which I always thought were lesser quality than other companies’ stock) and still think on that line: the D20’s main audience will always be 15-year-olds.
Even though QLI is a D20 company, they aren’t doing fantasy. That’s why it was minimized (I remember the whining kiddies when QLI first launched. They ran back to D&D eventually). Avenger Enterprises/Com-Star Games also is geared more toward HSF(Hard Sci-Fi) gaming - with both it’s Traveller lines and their homegrown game, Translight.
In short, no need to be upset. Kiddies will be kiddies. I can only hope the more moderate people will be handling MGT. Then again, according to history, that is what should happen anyway.